Discussion:
Variable selectivity?
(too old to reply)
gareth
2013-10-05 13:18:13 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?

This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary of
IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.

I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests me
for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
Mantrid
2013-10-05 13:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary of
IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests
me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
You might find something here.

www.eddystoneusergroup.org.uk

Number 15 "Inductor lore"

J
--
"How we have advanced, thanks to the Machine!" said Vashti.

"The Machine Stops" - 1909
Mantrid
2013-10-05 14:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mantrid
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary
of IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests
me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
You might find something here.
www.eddystoneusergroup.org.uk
Number 15 "Inductor lore"
I should have said, Restoration Projects, then Number 15

J
--
"How we have advanced, thanks to the Machine!" said Vashti.

"The Machine Stops" - 1909
gareth
2013-10-05 15:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mantrid
Post by Mantrid
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary
of IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests
me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
You might find something here.
www.eddystoneusergroup.org.uk
Number 15 "Inductor lore"
I should have said, Restoration Projects, then Number 15
Well done, that man!

Actually, "No5 Crystal filters and receiver selectivity" has the desired
photo.

Many thanks.
gareth
2013-10-05 16:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Post by Mantrid
Post by Mantrid
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary
of IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of
the transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what
interests me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
You might find something here.
www.eddystoneusergroup.org.uk
Number 15 "Inductor lore"
I should have said, Restoration Projects, then Number 15
Well done, that man!
Actually, "No5 Crystal filters and receiver selectivity" has the desired
photo.
Many thanks.
... AND ... a very good explanation of the Eddystone dial, to boot!
Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-05 20:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
... AND ... a very good explanation of the Eddystone dial, to boot!
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.co.uk
.
Ubuntu 12.04
Thunderbirds are go.
Stephen Thomas Cole
2013-10-05 21:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by gareth
... AND ... a very good explanation of the Eddystone dial, to boot!
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
Gareth would turn the other cheek, but it's hard to do that when a copper's
got your head pinned to the floor with his size 12 standard issue.
--
If the above message is full of spelling mistakes or the snipping is duff,
it's probably because it was sent from my iPhone, likely whilst walking.
Apologies!
Jimbo...
2013-10-06 08:12:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Post by Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
Gareth would turn the other cheek, but it's hard to do that when a copper's
got your head pinned to the floor with his size 12 standard issue.
probably one of the last few things he did before he topped
himself...............
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-06 10:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimbo...
Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Post by Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
Gareth would turn the other cheek, but it's hard to do that when a copper's
got your head pinned to the floor with his size 12 standard issue.
probably one of the last few things he did before he topped
himself...............
The fact that the plods videoed the arrest tells me that they were
expecting, and got, problems.
More recent allegations of attacking postmen etc confirm their need for
caution.
That plod had no need to top himself over an incident in which he lost his
cool while dealing with an idiot. He had been acquitted and IMHO should have
brought counter-charges for defamation.
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.co.uk
Jimbo...
2013-10-06 12:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Jimbo...
Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Post by Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
Gareth would turn the other cheek, but it's hard to do that when a copper's
got your head pinned to the floor with his size 12 standard issue.
probably one of the last few things he did before he topped
himself...............
The fact that the plods videoed the arrest tells me that they were
expecting, and got, problems.
More recent allegations of attacking postmen etc confirm their need for
caution.
That plod had no need to top himself over an incident in which he lost his
cool while dealing with an idiot. He had been acquitted and IMHO should
have brought counter-charges for defamation.
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
I blame the freemasons in the polis.......
Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-06 20:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jimbo...
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by Jimbo...
Post by Stephen Thomas Cole
Post by Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
"To boot" seems quite apt for you, old Bean.
Gareth would turn the other cheek, but it's hard to do that when a copper's
got your head pinned to the floor with his size 12 standard issue.
probably one of the last few things he did before he topped
himself...............
The fact that the plods videoed the arrest tells me that they were
expecting, and got, problems.
More recent allegations of attacking postmen etc confirm their need for
caution.
That plod had no need to top himself over an incident in which he lost his
cool while dealing with an idiot. He had been acquitted and IMHO should
have brought counter-charges for defamation.
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
I blame the freemasons in the polis.......
Not the RSGB?
--
;-)
.
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
.
http://turner-smith.co.uk
.
Ubuntu 12.04
Thunderbirds are go.
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-13 00:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable
selectivity arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some
other manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary
and secondary of IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two
halves of the transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but
what interests me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans
themselves.
This is the same arrangement used by Hammarlund in the
Super-Pro series. Its been too long since I had a Super-Pro
IF can open to remember exactly how the movable coils were
fastened and guided but the variation was done by a post
coming out the bottom of the can and operated by a cam on a
shaft turned by the front panel "selectivity" knob. Very
simple mechanism. This type of variable selectivity is the
only one with completely symmetrical expansion of the
passband. Those using tapped inductances coupled to the IF
coils, such as used in the SP-600-JX and RCA AR-88, are
nearly as good. Capacitance coupling usually results in
some asymmetry as seen in some Hallicrafters receivers
although the variable pass band in the SX-28 works quite
well.
Later in this thread someone asks about variable
crystal filters. There are essentially two forms: the
original Lamb filter and the later one patented by
Hammarlund in 1938 and first used in the HQ-120-X. The
Hammarlund filter has the advantage that the center
frequency does not vary with the bandwidth adjustment or
when the phasing null is moved around. The Hammarlund
circuit was used in the SP-200, 400 and 600 Super Pro
receivers as well as the HQ series and, in slightly modified
form, by TMC in the GPR-90 and by Collins in the 75A-1,2,3
and 51J series. National and Hallicrafters mostly used the
earlier Lamb circuit. as did Hammarlund in the SP-100
Super-Pro.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
gareth
2013-10-13 06:02:00 UTC
Permalink
WOW!

A very full response, thank-you.
Post by gareth
I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?
This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary
of IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.
I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests
me for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
This is the same arrangement used by Hammarlund in the Super-Pro
series. Its been too long since I had a Super-Pro IF can open to remember
exactly how the movable coils were fastened and guided but the variation
was done by a post coming out the bottom of the can and operated by a cam
on a shaft turned by the front panel "selectivity" knob. Very simple
mechanism. This type of variable selectivity is the only one with
completely symmetrical expansion of the passband. Those using tapped
inductances coupled to the IF coils, such as used in the SP-600-JX and RCA
AR-88, are nearly as good. Capacitance coupling usually results in some
asymmetry as seen in some Hallicrafters receivers although the variable
pass band in the SX-28 works quite well.
Later in this thread someone asks about variable crystal filters.
There are essentially two forms: the original Lamb filter and the later
one patented by Hammarlund in 1938 and first used in the HQ-120-X. The
Hammarlund filter has the advantage that the center frequency does not
vary with the bandwidth adjustment or when the phasing null is moved
around. The Hammarlund circuit was used in the SP-200, 400 and 600 Super
Pro receivers as well as the HQ series and, in slightly modified form, by
TMC in the GPR-90 and by Collins in the 75A-1,2,3 and 51J series.
National and Hallicrafters mostly used the earlier Lamb circuit. as did
Hammarlund in the SP-100 Super-Pro.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-13 10:32:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
WOW!
A very full response, thank-you.
Let's go Beanie, let's go.
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-13 16:31:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
WOW!
A very full response, thank-you.
After I posted this I realized that I forgot a part. In
the Super-Pro there is a phenolic lever between the rotating
cam and the rods from the movable coils. I am not sure why
the rods are not moved directly by the cams. I think
Hammarlund had a patent on the IF variation system but I
don't have the number. The Hammarlund crystal filter is
described in _QST_ Dec 1938, p.33 D.K. Oram "Full Range
Selectivity with the 455 khc Crystal Filter" Oram's patent
is USP 2222043 You can get patents by number from the U.S.
Patent and Trade Mark Office or from Google Patents. The
Google site has the advantage that patents are searchable by
text for _all_ dates and are available in PDF form.
I also have the Lamb patents but it will take some
searching since my file is organized by patent number and
not title. However, they are easily found by doing a Google
search for James Lamb. You will also find his patent for
the famous Lamb Noise Blanker. Lamb had more than one patent
on crystal filters and wrote extensively about them in the
early thirties editions of QST. AFAIK, the first application
of the Lamb filter was in the HRO. The first Hammarlund
filter was in the HQ-120-X and it was later applied to the
Super-Pro. Some Series 100 Super-Pros have crystal filters
as an add-on but these are not the later version. BTW, the
Lamb patent was licensed to James Millen. At the time he was
one of the principles of the National Radio company and is
supposed to have been responsible for the mechanical design
of the HRO.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
gareth
2013-10-13 18:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Further information most welcome, thank-you

In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.

Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?

It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about through
experience?
Post by gareth
WOW!
A very full response, thank-you.
After I posted this I realized that I forgot a part. In the Super-Pro
there is a phenolic lever between the rotating cam and the rods from the
movable coils. I am not sure why the rods are not moved directly by the
cams. I think Hammarlund had a patent on the IF variation system but I
don't have the number. The Hammarlund crystal filter is described in _QST_
Dec 1938, p.33 D.K. Oram "Full Range Selectivity with the 455 khc Crystal
Filter" Oram's patent is USP 2222043 You can get patents by number from
the U.S. Patent and Trade Mark Office or from Google Patents. The Google
site has the advantage that patents are searchable by text for _all_ dates
and are available in PDF form.
I also have the Lamb patents but it will take some searching since my
file is organized by patent number and not title. However, they are easily
found by doing a Google search for James Lamb. You will also find his
patent for the famous Lamb Noise Blanker. Lamb had more than one patent on
crystal filters and wrote extensively about them in the early thirties
editions of QST. AFAIK, the first application of the Lamb filter was in
the HRO. The first Hammarlund filter was in the HQ-120-X and it was later
applied to the Super-Pro. Some Series 100 Super-Pros have crystal filters
as an add-on but these are not the later version. BTW, the Lamb patent
was licensed to James Millen. At the time he was one of the principles of
the National Radio company and is supposed to have been responsible for
the mechanical design of the HRO.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-13 19:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously,
there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was
the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt
some means of isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent
whether he proposed therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the
phasing control to null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that
came about through experience?
I think this was part of Lamb's original intention. The
articles originally describing the use of the filter were
aimed at "single signal" reception, meaning that the audio
image was suppressed. The Lamb filter required some juggling
between the bandwidth and phasing adjustments to get the
response to where the operator wanted it since they
interacted with each other and with the center frequency.
Nonetheless, the filter worked very well and provided an
order of magnitude better selectivity than was available
previously.
James Millen was one of the founders of National but
eventually was pushed out of the company. He started his own
company, also in Malden Mass, and probably made many parts
for National as well as his own stuff. Millen made very high
quality components. There is considerable history of both
National and Millen, including a Millen Society, on the web,
a Google search will find it.
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its day
and stayed one of the favorites for both ham and commercial
use for some thirty years. The mechanical design is
attributed mostly to James Millen and the electronic design
mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of the
US.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
gareth
2013-10-13 20:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about
through experience?
I think this was part of Lamb's original intention. The articles
originally describing the use of the filter were aimed at "single signal"
reception, meaning that the audio image was suppressed. The Lamb filter
required some juggling between the bandwidth and phasing adjustments to
get the response to where the operator wanted it since they interacted
with each other and with the center frequency. Nonetheless, the filter
worked very well and provided an order of magnitude better selectivity
than was available previously.
James Millen was one of the founders of National but eventually was
pushed out of the company. He started his own company, also in Malden
Mass, and probably made many parts for National as well as his own stuff.
Millen made very high quality components. There is considerable history
of both National and Millen, including a Millen Society, on the web, a
Google search will find it.
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its day and stayed one
of the favorites for both ham and commercial use for some thirty years.
The mechanical design is attributed mostly to James Millen and the
electronic design mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of
the US.
I'm in the process of making a retro RX, primarily because I've a junk box
going back
50 years and if I don't do something with the bits now, then the executor of
my will
is likely to skip the lot.

I recently analysed the Sperry PWD dial from the HRO, and conceived of a way
to
reproduce it, but without needing an internal toother ring.

However, my tastes have changed, and I'm now heading for an RX that is
similar in style
to the Eddystone EA12.

But the one thing that I owe to the National design in my musings is the
possibility of
emulating the Catacomb from the NC100X RX, as the means of simplifying the
wiring
of a bandswitch.

I was originally interested in the variable selectivity of the Eddystone,
and, indeed, have obtained
a photo of the innards of one of the variable IF transformers, but I think
that I'll do a coouple of ladder
filters based on modern practice, with both SSB and CW versions.

Once again, very interesting articles from you, thanks!

Gareth G4SDW
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-13 21:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
I'm in the process of making a retro RX, primarily because I've a junk box
going back
50 years and if I don't do something with the bits now, then the executor
of my will is likely to skip the lot.
I recently analysed the Sperry PWD dial from the HRO, and conceived of a
way to reproduce it, but without needing an internal toother ring.
However, my tastes have changed, and I'm now heading for an RX that is
similar in style to the Eddystone EA12.
But the one thing that I owe to the National design in my musings is the
possibility of
emulating the Catacomb from the NC100X RX, as the means of simplifying the
wiring of a bandswitch.
I was originally interested in the variable selectivity of the Eddystone,
and, indeed, have obtained
a photo of the innards of one of the variable IF transformers, but I think
that I'll do a coouple of ladder
filters based on modern practice, with both SSB and CW versions.
Once again, very interesting articles from you, thanks!
Gareth G4SDW
Let's go Beanie, let's go.
Hank
2013-10-14 06:44:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Knoppow
James Millen was one of the founders of National but
eventually was pushed out of the company. He started his own
company, also in Malden Mass, and probably made many parts
for National as well as his own stuff. Millen made very high
quality components.
Millen Mfg., at least at the time I worked there, was in direct
competition with National Co. on several products, and neither
company supplied the other.
Post by Richard Knoppow
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its day
and stayed one of the favorites for both ham and commercial
use for some thirty years. The mechanical design is
attributed mostly to James Millen and the electronic design
mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of the
US.
While the HRO was a legendary product, I'd hardly call it
"revolutionary." It was a follow-on to the AGS line, with objectives
to maintain AGS performance at lower cost-to-manufacture, and to
normalize the coil-set interface so that the tuning coils could be
built all-in-one-box and interchangeable. An examination of the
schematic will show it to be essentially a copy of higher-end home
entertainment circuits of the era, with a crystal filter and bfo
added. Much of the actual performance came from use of better coils
(house-built) in the RF and IF stages, a house-built tuning capacitor,
and the house-built tuning dial was superior to almost anything else
around. In short, a relatively straightforward tried-and-proven
electrical design, but extremely well-executed in component quality
and mechanical structure, pretty much hallmarks of Jim Millen's team.

Worth noting that the NC-100, National's follow-on product, had
similar performance, with the advantage of having internally-mounted
and switchable tuning coils.

Hank
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-14 15:34:23 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Richard Knoppow
James Millen was one of the founders of National but
eventually was pushed out of the company. He started his
own
company, also in Malden Mass, and probably made many parts
for National as well as his own stuff. Millen made very
high
quality components.
Millen Mfg., at least at the time I worked there, was in
direct
competition with National Co. on several products, and
neither
company supplied the other.
Post by Richard Knoppow
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its
day
and stayed one of the favorites for both ham and
commercial
use for some thirty years. The mechanical design is
attributed mostly to James Millen and the electronic
design
mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of the
US.
While the HRO was a legendary product, I'd hardly call it
"revolutionary." It was a follow-on to the AGS line, with
objectives
to maintain AGS performance at lower cost-to-manufacture,
and to
normalize the coil-set interface so that the tuning coils
could be
built all-in-one-box and interchangeable. An examination
of the
schematic will show it to be essentially a copy of
higher-end home
entertainment circuits of the era, with a crystal filter
and bfo
added. Much of the actual performance came from use of
better coils
(house-built) in the RF and IF stages, a house-built
tuning capacitor,
and the house-built tuning dial was superior to almost
anything else
around. In short, a relatively straightforward
tried-and-proven
electrical design, but extremely well-executed in
component quality
and mechanical structure, pretty much hallmarks of Jim
Millen's team.
Worth noting that the NC-100, National's follow-on
product, had
similar performance, with the advantage of having
internally-mounted
and switchable tuning coils.
Hank
While the HRO had similar circuits to home receivers of
the time I rather think there was not that much variation
available. The HRO did use pentode mixers in place of
hexode or pentagrid mixers resulting in low noise. The
NC-100 was certainly a clever design but had only one RF so
its image rejection is not as good as the HRO.
I forgot to mention Dana Bacon another designer at
National. I am not sure what contributions he made.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
Michael Black
2013-10-14 18:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Knoppow
In article
Post by Richard Knoppow
James Millen was one of the founders of National but
eventually was pushed out of the company. He started his
own
company, also in Malden Mass, and probably made many parts
for National as well as his own stuff. Millen made very
high
quality components.
Millen Mfg., at least at the time I worked there, was in
direct
competition with National Co. on several products, and
neither
company supplied the other.
Post by Richard Knoppow
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its
day
and stayed one of the favorites for both ham and
commercial
use for some thirty years. The mechanical design is
attributed mostly to James Millen and the electronic
design
mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of the
US.
While the HRO was a legendary product, I'd hardly call it
"revolutionary." It was a follow-on to the AGS line, with
objectives
to maintain AGS performance at lower cost-to-manufacture,
and to
normalize the coil-set interface so that the tuning coils
could be
built all-in-one-box and interchangeable. An examination
of the
schematic will show it to be essentially a copy of
higher-end home
entertainment circuits of the era, with a crystal filter
and bfo
added. Much of the actual performance came from use of
better coils
(house-built) in the RF and IF stages, a house-built
tuning capacitor,
and the house-built tuning dial was superior to almost
anything else
around. In short, a relatively straightforward
tried-and-proven
electrical design, but extremely well-executed in
component quality
and mechanical structure, pretty much hallmarks of Jim
Millen's team.
Worth noting that the NC-100, National's follow-on
product, had
similar performance, with the advantage of having
internally-mounted
and switchable tuning coils.
Hank
While the HRO had similar circuits to home receivers of
the time I rather think there was not that much variation
available. The HRO did use pentode mixers in place of
hexode or pentagrid mixers resulting in low noise. The
NC-100 was certainly a clever design but had only one RF so
its image rejection is not as good as the HRO.
And that the HRO had two RF stages seems to be a significant factor.

Even in the seventies, when Ray Moore wrote a number of articles about
receiver design in Ham Radio magazine, he pointed out that one reason the
HRO stood out was the 2 rf stages, which mean much better image rejection
than the average receiver. The HRO-60 (or was it the 50?) added double
conversion on the higher bands, but the earlier models were still
contenders in that period for good image rejection on the higher bands.
And of course, the design was good, so the extra stage actually helped
rather than hindered.

A superhet is a superhet, it's small details like this that made some
better than others.

A couple of years ago, I found at a garage sale for 2.00 a Grundig/Eton
pocket shortwave receiver. It's a pretty crummy receiver, but without
adding cost to it, they included a frequency counter. So a receiver
probably as bad and as simple as my Hallicrafters S-120A from 1971
instantly gets a giant improvement in tuning because of that frequency
counter. And once they did away with the analog dial, they could break
the tuning segments up into smaller ranges, helping the tuning process.

What initially complicates the receiver tremendously (or would if the
frequency counter wasn't a single IC that also included a clock function
and cost very little and took up little space), actually simplifies it.

Today, you can stick with a 455KHz IF and then fuss over image rejection,
or you can move to a higher IF and simplify the front end. Or go with
double conversion, getting the easier image rejection, yet selectivity
down where you can do things like use LC circuits.

A single conversion receiver with 455KHz and one RF stage (if that) can't
be much different from a circa 1930s receiver, communication or consumer,
but you can now make simple receivers with other methods that actually
mean better performance.

It amazes me that over the past 7 years or so I've found shortwave
receivers at rummage and garage sales, all nice and cheap, that are so
much better than that 1971 Hallicrafters. Or even buy a new digitally
tuned portable receiver for about the price I paid in 1971 for that
Hallicrafters, and get nearly infinitely better capability.

Michael VE2BVW
Michael Black
2013-10-14 18:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Knoppow
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously,
there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was
the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt
some means of isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent
whether he proposed therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the
phasing control to null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that
came about through experience?
I think this was part of Lamb's original intention. The
articles originally describing the use of the filter were
aimed at "single signal" reception, meaning that the audio
image was suppressed. The Lamb filter required some juggling
between the bandwidth and phasing adjustments to get the
response to where the operator wanted it since they
interacted with each other and with the center frequency.
Nonetheless, the filter worked very well and provided an
order of magnitude better selectivity than was available
previously.
James Millen was one of the founders of National but
eventually was pushed out of the company. He started his own
company, also in Malden Mass, and probably made many parts
for National as well as his own stuff. Millen made very high
quality components. There is considerable history of both
National and Millen, including a Millen Society, on the web,
a Google search will find it.
The National HRO was a revolutionary receiver in its day
and stayed one of the favorites for both ham and commercial
use for some thirty years. The mechanical design is
attributed mostly to James Millen and the electronic design
mostly to Herbert Hoover Jr., son of the president of the
US.
And Hoover Jr. was president of the ARRL for a while.

Michael VE2BVW
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-13 21:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about through
experience?
Let's go Beanie, let's go.
Hank
2013-10-14 05:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors,uk.radio.amateur
Subject: Re: Variable selectivity?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:11:43 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 62
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Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
I'm a bit surprised to see any doubt about James Millen as the honcho
of National Company before 1939, his departure from National, and his
setting up James Millen Manufacturing in Malden, Mass. a short
distance from National in 1939-40. Yes, there was only one James
Millen. There are a couple of web sites devoted to (Jim) Millen's
history. I worked for James Millen Mfg. for a couple of years in the
1950's, so know a bit about Millen and some of the history behind the
1939 split with National. It was never entirely clear to me just
what went on---on the one hand, a desire on the part of National's
principal money backers to go public, and to move the company in
different directions, with more consumer products; also, some
financial things that reduced the money that Millen and his close
associates (most or all of whom moved to Millen Mfg.) got from
National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
I don't know about Hammarlund's variable coupling IF's in any detail,
but I'd suspect that the interposition of a phenolic piece was for
mechanical reasons, not electrical. Millen offered a line of IF
transformers (455 and 1600 Khz) that used adjustable capacitive coupling
only between the coils---one of my projects when I worked there.
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about through
experience?
So far as I know, Lamb's single signal focus was on CW reception with no
audio content. As I recall, phasing the crystal filter came later.
Early (1933-34) production receivers I know of that used Lamb's
principles were the National AGS-X and FB-7X; and the RME-9D.

Hank
Michael Black
2013-10-14 18:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hank
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors,uk.radio.amateur
Subject: Re: Variable selectivity?
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 19:11:43 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 62
Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2013 18:11:44 +0000 (UTC)
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Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
I'm a bit surprised to see any doubt about James Millen as the honcho
of National Company before 1939, his departure from National, and his
setting up James Millen Manufacturing in Malden, Mass. a short
distance from National in 1939-40. Yes, there was only one James
Millen. There are a couple of web sites devoted to (Jim) Millen's
history. I worked for James Millen Mfg. for a couple of years in the
1950's, so know a bit about Millen and some of the history behind the
1939 split with National. It was never entirely clear to me just
what went on---on the one hand, a desire on the part of National's
principal money backers to go public, and to move the company in
different directions, with more consumer products; also, some
financial things that reduced the money that Millen and his close
associates (most or all of whom moved to Millen Mfg.) got from
National.
Millen was such a strong name by itself (I remember the single column ads
in the back of QST in 1971 when I started reading it), I think it was only
in recent years that I learned he had been part of National. That there
was a connection between the two companies had always seemed obvious,
though I assumed Millen had been like a subcontractor to supply parts to
Natinoal.

Millen probably was better off as a separate company, he could "design for
excellence" and have his name more prominent.

MIchael VE2BVW
Michael Black
2013-10-14 18:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about through
experience?
ONce again, "single signal selectivity" is credited to the Lamb filter,
everyone referencs that famous QST article of his. You don't need the
phasing control to get the single signal selectivity.

Micahel VE2BVW
gareth
2013-10-14 19:26:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Black
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously, there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it was the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that came about through
experience?
ONce again, "single signal selectivity" is credited to the Lamb filter,
everyone referencs that famous QST article of his. You don't need the
phasing control to get the single signal selectivity.
Incorrect.

If the Xtal alone gave you single signal reception, then there'd be no
advantage
whatsoever in having the phasing control.

That the phasing control can be used to null out other signals is the strong
indication
that more than the one signal is getting through the Xtal.

Single Signal reception is the reference to the audio image being phased
out.
KaFKaesque
2013-10-14 21:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
That the phasing control can be used to null out other signals is the strong
indication
that more than the one signal is getting through the Xtal.
Surely the phasing control is there to allow the operator to introduce
an antiphase of the unwanted signal(s) leaking *around* the crystal?
FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
2013-10-14 22:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Incorrect.
If the Xtal alone gave you single signal reception, then there'd be no
advantage whatsoever in having the phasing control.
That the phasing control can be used to null out other signals is the
strong indication that more than the one signal is getting through the
Xtal.
Single Signal reception is the reference to the audio image being phased
out.
Let's go Beanie, let's go.
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-15 03:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by FranK Turner-Smith G3VKI
Post by gareth
Incorrect.
Let's go Beanie, let's go.
Are you Cecil or Uncle Captain?
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow
2013-10-15 03:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by gareth
Post by Michael Black
Post by gareth
Further information most welcome, thank-you
In the 1948 Radio handbook which I mentioned previously,
there are adverts
from a company by the name of Millen, and I assumed it
was the same guy
after he had left National.
Your comment about a phenolic intersperser is no doubt
some means of
isolating an
earthy contact?
It would be interesting to know from the Lamb patent
whether he proposed
therein the
technique of Single Signal Reception by the use of the
phasing control to
null
out the audio image, or whether this was something that
came about through
experience?
ONce again, "single signal selectivity" is credited to
the Lamb filter, everyone referencs that famous QST
article of his. You don't need the phasing control to
get the single signal selectivity.
Incorrect.
If the Xtal alone gave you single signal reception, then
there'd be no advantage
whatsoever in having the phasing control.
That the phasing control can be used to null out other
signals is the strong indication
that more than the one signal is getting through the Xtal.
Single Signal reception is the reference to the audio
image being phased out.
I have an RCA AR-88 receiver, this has a crystal filter
but does not make the phasing adjustment available although
there is one internally. The filter works quite well but the
lack of the phasing adjustment to null out heterodynes is a
distinct lack. In later versions of the receiver RCA did
bring the control out the front panel but, because its not a
balanced control, as is the Hammarlund and later Lamb
filter, it doesn't work nearly as well. I suspect RCA was
trying to avoid infringing the Lamb patent.
The original Lamb filter when set for high selectivity,
could cut out the audio image of a CW signal pretty well
but, of course, the phasing control could be set
specifically to null it out. Lamb wrote two or three
articles in QST in the early thirties about improving the
receivers available at the time and about single signal
reception.
You are right about the HRO not being the first receiver
with a crystal filter. I am not sure which was but an
earlier National receiver definitely had it as you point
out.
BTW, in searching for Lamb's patents earlier today I
came across one I didn't know about: its essentially a
mechanical filter using a rod with piezo electric drivers
and pickups. Lamb describes a variable bandwidth IF using
this filter for the medium wide band, a normal single
crystal filter for the narrow band and a conventional IF
transformer for the widest band. Curiously this patent is
assigned to RCA. I didn't note the patent number but all of
these can be found by searching Google Patents for James J.
Lamb.
--
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
***@ix.netcom.com
ª"˜¨¨¯¯¨ ŚĿĄⱤ₮ῘḆḁṜṱḟᶏȘȶ ©
2013-10-15 14:27:31 UTC
Permalink
This is completely out of order, a posting about amateur radio on here,
almost unheard of!

"gareth" wrote in message news:l2p3im$u9g$***@dont-email.me...

I wonder if anyone can offer a picture of the variable selectivity
arrangement of
the Eddystone EA12, which I believe was also used by some other
manufacturers?

This was the scheme whereby coupling between the primary and secondary of
IF
transformers was varied nechanically by distancing the two halves of the
transformer
from each other.

I have access to photos showing the operating levers, but what interests me
for
the moment is to have a peek, or peeks, inside the IF cans themselves.
coffelt2
2014-01-14 09:58:02 UTC
Permalink
At first, I wasn't sure if it was an amplitude or frequency "warble".
Finally decided it was frequency. A little ragged, but affected both receive
and transmit.
Not much, only a few htz, but ragged and disconcerting after so many years
of faithful service................


since I considder myself a a repairman, what do I do next? 30 or 40 years of
"freezemist" and " "heat gun" analysis, I still don't know my way around
this Kenwood TS-130. (my first transciever).

Replace all electrolytics and see what happens next?

HELP!

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ since 1948
Scott Dorsey
2014-01-14 14:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by coffelt2
At first, I wasn't sure if it was an amplitude or frequency "warble".
Finally decided it was frequency. A little ragged, but affected both receive
and transmit.
Not much, only a few htz, but ragged and disconcerting after so many years
of faithful service................
since I considder myself a a repairman, what do I do next? 30 or 40 years of
"freezemist" and " "heat gun" analysis, I still don't know my way around
this Kenwood TS-130. (my first transciever).
Replace all electrolytics and see what happens next?
Is it warbling at 60 or 120 Hz? If it is, supply rails might be an issue.

But I'd first look at every internal oscillator on a scope and see which one
is unstable. Don't lock the scope to the input, lock it to line and adjust
the sweep by hand until the image on the scope stabilizes. You will see any
phase noise readily (assuming the scope timebase has no visible phase noise).

One of those oscillators is noisy. If they are _all_ noisy than it's time
to look at the supply.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Brian Reay
2014-01-14 15:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by coffelt2
At first, I wasn't sure if it was an amplitude or frequency "warble".
Finally decided it was frequency. A little ragged, but affected both
receive and transmit.
Not much, only a few htz, but ragged and disconcerting after so many
years of faithful service................
since I considder myself a a repairman, what do I do next? 30 or 40
years of "freezemist" and " "heat gun" analysis, I still don't know my
way around this Kenwood TS-130. (my first transciever).
Replace all electrolytics and see what happens next?
HELP!
Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ since 1948
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you consider
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It doesn't
sound like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing
of components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they should be.

I've done a quick Google and there are copies of the Service Manual on
the internet and Kenwood manuals are pretty good. You should be able to
make the adjustments.

73
Brian
G8OSN/W8OSN
gareth
2014-01-14 15:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Reay
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you consider
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It doesn't sound
like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing of
components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they should be.
I've done a quick Google and there are copies of the Service Manual on the
internet and Kenwood manuals are pretty good. You should be able to make
the adjustments.
73
Brian
M3OSN/G8OSN/W8OSN

Well done, Brian! See, you can make a positive and relevant contribution to
discussion, without gratuitous and somewhat infantile sneers, in this NG if
you really try.

Keep up the good work!
Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI
2014-01-15 16:49:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 15:48:24 -0000, "gareth"
Post by gareth
Post by Brian Reay
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you
consider
Post by gareth
Post by Brian Reay
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It
doesn't sound
Post by gareth
Post by Brian Reay
like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing of
components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they
should be.
Post by gareth
Post by Brian Reay
I've done a quick Google and there are copies of the Service
Manual on the
Post by gareth
Post by Brian Reay
internet and Kenwood manuals are pretty good. You should be able to make
the adjustments.
73
Brian
M3OSN/G8OSN/W8OSN
Well done, Brian! See, you can make a positive and relevant
contribution to
Post by gareth
discussion, without gratuitous and somewhat infantile sneers, in this NG if
you really try.
Keep up the good work!
Ok Beanie, now its your turn.
--
73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint.
Scott Dorsey
2014-01-14 21:10:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Reay
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you consider
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It doesn't
sound like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing
of components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they should be.
I'd bet a nickel that this is precisely what is wrong... but you'll know
it when you see the PLL output it on the scope and it's bouncing around!
Post by Brian Reay
I've done a quick Google and there are copies of the Service Manual on
the internet and Kenwood manuals are pretty good. You should be able to
make the adjustments.
It's conceptually very different than working on an R-390 but to be honest
it's a whole lot easier.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Brian Reay
2014-01-14 22:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Brian Reay
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you consider
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It doesn't
sound like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing
of components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they should be.
I'd bet a nickel that this is precisely what is wrong...
I've seen it, and fixed it, numerous times. One of these things you see
when you've been around a bit.

Following the PPL set up procedure normally cures it for another decade
or more, I've never had one back again.

73
Brian
G8OSN/W8OSN
coffelt2
2014-01-17 02:36:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Reay
Post by coffelt2
At first, I wasn't sure if it was an amplitude or frequency "warble".
Finally decided it was frequency. A little ragged, but affected both
receive and transmit.
Not much, only a few htz, but ragged and disconcerting after so many
years of faithful service................
since I considder myself a a repairman, what do I do next? 30 or 40
years of "freezemist" and " "heat gun" analysis, I still don't know my
way around this Kenwood TS-130. (my first transciever).
Replace all electrolytics and see what happens next?
HELP!
Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ since 1948
Scott's suggestion is a good one but I'd also suggest you consider
checking that the PLL isn't simply on the limit of lock. It doesn't sound
like you've checked the radio over since new and, with the ageing of
components etc., it is quite possible things are not as they should be.
I've done a quick Google and there are copies of the Service Manual on the
internet and Kenwood manuals are pretty good. You should be able to make
the adjustments.
73
Brian
G8OSN/W8OSN
Thanks, everyone! I think looking at a PLL on the ragged edge of
falling out of lock is a red hot lead!
I've got a faded copy of the service manual gathering dust somewhere in
one
of these piles.
When someone mentioned PLL lock, it hit me right on the noggin.
I'd heard that ragged and irregular warble several times in the past,
when I did servicing, but that was many, many years ago... I'm sure that
will be the key. I'll report bank on this thread, but it might be a couple
of
weeks as the list of high priority "Honey Do's" is way behind schedule.
Thanks, Thanks, Thanks,

Old Chief Lynn, W7LTQ since 1948

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