High brightness LEDs?

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

You might find a little constant current supply, but my guess is that
you'd just find a big dropping resistor. That configuration would
result in most of the power being wasted as heat, but it would still
produce less heat than an incandescent and be brighter.

If you want a high voltage regulator, a TIP50 transistor and a high
voltage zener (or a string of low voltage zeners) will fix you right
up. The TIP50 is comparatively easy to damage, but if you don't hook
it up backwards or something it will be very, very reliable. Not
expensive.

Think of the TIP50 as a 5080 replacement with a lot more gain and
better transconductance in the bargain.

If you want a high voltage switcher, on the other hand, look at the
Linear Technology chips intended for LCD backlight inverters. There
are some great Jim Williams applications notes.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-28 14:30:49 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

You might find a little constant current supply, but my guess is that
you'd just find a big dropping resistor. That configuration would
result in most of the power being wasted as heat, but it would still
produce less heat than an incandescent and be brighter.
If you want a high voltage regulator, a TIP50 transistor and a high
voltage zener (or a string of low voltage zeners) will fix you right
up. The TIP50 is comparatively easy to damage, but if you don't hook
it up backwards or something it will be very, very reliable. Not
expensive.
Think of the TIP50 as a 5080 replacement with a lot more gain and
better transconductance in the bargain.
If you want a high voltage switcher, on the other hand, look at the
Linear Technology chips intended for LCD backlight inverters. There
are some great Jim Williams applications notes.
--scott

No, these have electronic power supplies in them. Otherwise they would
dissipate huge amounts of heat. Think about it. LED's run at about 3V.
That means a 9W LED requires about 3 amps of power. 3 amps at 240V is
720W - or about 711W of power wasted. They would be way less efficient
than any other type of bulbs. Plus LED's run on DC and would not work
as efficiently on 50Hz AC.

However, they also are generally pretty well potted and almost
impossible to take apart without destroying them. And even if you could
get one apart, its design is single-purpose and generally won't do well
in a different application.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

Scott Dorsey

2014-11-29 04:11:09 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
No, these have electronic power supplies in them. Otherwise they would
dissipate huge amounts of heat. Think about it. LED's run at about 3V.
That means a 9W LED requires about 3 amps of power. 3 amps at 240V is
720W - or about 711W of power wasted. They would be way less efficient
than any other type of bulbs. Plus LED's run on DC and would not work
as efficiently on 50Hz AC.

9W is an enormous amount of power for an LED. The LEDs used to replace
pilot lamps are normally running 10mA, not 3 amps. This is what allows
a dropping resistor to be used.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 04:31:15 UTC

9W is an enormous amount of power for an LED. The LEDs used to replace
pilot lamps are normally running 10mA, not 3 amps. This is what allows
a dropping resistor to be used.
--scott

You are confusing LEDs with LED bulbs. A 9W LED bulb is equivalent to
about a 60W incandescent bulb.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

Scott Dorsey

2014-11-30 05:36:23 UTC

9W is an enormous amount of power for an LED. The LEDs used to replace
pilot lamps are normally running 10mA, not 3 amps. This is what allows
a dropping resistor to be used.

You are confusing LEDs with LED bulbs. A 9W LED bulb is equivalent to
about a 60W incandescent bulb.

Ahh, I thought you were talking about the high intensity LED replacements
for incandescent pilot lamps. Not the household bulb replacements. The
house lamp replacements have switchers in them.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jim Mueller

2014-11-28 22:30:46 UTC

These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to open them,
would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for some of our valve
experiments and repairs?

You might find a little constant current supply, but my guess is that
you'd just find a big dropping resistor. That configuration would
result in most of the power being wasted as heat, but it would still
produce less heat than an incandescent and be brighter.
If you want a high voltage regulator, a TIP50 transistor and a high
voltage zener (or a string of low voltage zeners) will fix you right up.
The TIP50 is comparatively easy to damage, but if you don't hook it up
backwards or something it will be very, very reliable. Not expensive.
Think of the TIP50 as a 5080 replacement with a lot more gain and better
transconductance in the bargain.
If you want a high voltage switcher, on the other hand, look at the
Linear Technology chips intended for LCD backlight inverters. There are
some great Jim Williams applications notes.
--scott

The regulators in LED lamps are constant current types, not constant
voltage. They also have some sort of step-down circuit because the LED
needs a lot more current than what you would want to draw from the AC
lines. Common power LED currents are in the neighborhood of 350 and 700
mA.

Some very small LED lamps, Christmas light size, use capacitors to limit
the current.

Jim Mueller

--
Jim Mueller ***@nospam.com

To get my real email address, replace wrongname with dadoheadman.
Then replace nospam with fastmail. Lastly, replace com with us.

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-28 18:17:08 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.

How many 3 volt valves can you name?

--
Jim Pennino

Michael Black

2014-11-28 20:00:46 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

I think that point was that if a regulator was used to drop the line
voltage to those 3volts, it could handle high voltage input. The probably
false assumption is that the regulator would be variable from some very
high output voltage to some very low output voltage, so one could use it
for tubes by making that adjustment.

A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

Of course, one can run tubes on low voltage. The Collins 75S receiver
line apparently kept plat voltage relatively low (somewhere around 120v if
I remember right) which had certain advantages. One can run regular tubes
at 12VDC on the plate, there were some articles in Popular Electronics
about this, calling them "starved circuits". Or there were those tubes
designed to run off 12VDC for those hybrid car radios, a last gasp before
transistors took over completely.

Though, 3VDC does seem a tad low.

Michael

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-28 21:11:02 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.

Post by Michael Black
A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Post by Michael Black
Of course, one can run tubes on low voltage. The Collins 75S receiver
line apparently kept plat voltage relatively low (somewhere around 120v if
I remember right) which had certain advantages. One can run regular tubes
at 12VDC on the plate, there were some articles in Popular Electronics
about this, calling them "starved circuits". Or there were those tubes
designed to run off 12VDC for those hybrid car radios, a last gasp before
transistors took over completely.
Though, 3VDC does seem a tad low.

When they were running regular tubes on "low voltage", that was voltages
around 100 V as opposed to 200 to 300 Volts.

The 12 Volt tubes are long gone and not that great to begin with.

Post by Michael Black
Michael

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-28 21:35:44 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

<snip>

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-28 22:24:47 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.

However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-28 23:16:39 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

rickman

2014-11-29 00:05:03 UTC

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Try reading a little...

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

--
Rick

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 00:37:18 UTC

<snip>

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
Given that manufacturers want the least cost in a product, and the
regulator in a light bulb would have no need for a variable regulator,
and that these things are made in the millions, it would be extremely
silly to assume that the regulator is anything other than a fixed
regulator for LED's and is designed to handle the load of some fixed
number of LED's.

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

No, I am NOT speculating on anything.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Yes, it is correct as it means that the average voltage is changed.

Incandescent bulbs are thermal devices and the light ouput is directly
proportional to the average applied voltage and don't care if the
applied voltage is DC, a sine wave, or pulses derived from a sine wave.

And dimmers do NOT work by changing the phase angle, they work by
changing a thyristor phase control.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

--
Jim Pennino

rickman

2014-11-29 01:03:50 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

No, I am NOT speculating on anything.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.

Yes, it is correct as it means that the average voltage is changed.
Incandescent bulbs are thermal devices and the light ouput is directly
proportional to the average applied voltage and don't care if the
applied voltage is DC, a sine wave, or pulses derived from a sine wave.
And dimmers do NOT work by changing the phase angle, they work by
changing a thyristor phase control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

Please be as pedantic as you like. You are wrong.

The very article you reference shows that the dimmer works by
controlling the phase angle over which the AC voltage is passed to the
load. There are *many* LED bulbs which can be dimmed by this standard
type of dimmer. As the reference I provide shows, these bulbs include
smarts to measure this phase angle and adjust the bulb brightness
accordingly. I have several in my home.

--
Rick

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 01:31:42 UTC

<snip>

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

Please be as pedantic as you like. You are wrong.

No, I am not, and I am being precise in my language.

Post by rickman
The very article you reference shows that the dimmer works by
controlling the phase angle over which the AC voltage is passed to the
load.

Which is the phase angle, or more properly, the conduction angle of the
contolling device, not the phase angle of the AC source.

If the voltage is turned off for part of the conduction cycle, the
average voltage changes.

This is Electronics 101.

Post by rickman
There are *many* LED bulbs which can be dimmed by this standard
type of dimmer.

Yes, there are, but that is irrelevant to how a dimmer works and only
relevant to how the bulb works.

Post by rickman
As the reference I provide shows,

What reference?

Post by rickman
these bulbs include
smarts to measure this phase angle

You mean conduction angle?

You can't measure a phase angle absent a reference signal of a known
phase.

Again, Electronic 101.

Post by rickman
and adjust the bulb brightness
accordingly. I have several in my home.

Whoopee!!

--
Jim Pennino

rickman

2014-11-29 03:37:22 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor#Applications

Please be as pedantic as you like. You are wrong.

No, I am not, and I am being precise in my language.

Post by rickman
The very article you reference shows that the dimmer works by
controlling the phase angle over which the AC voltage is passed to the
load.

Which is the phase angle, or more properly, the conduction angle of the
contolling device, not the phase angle of the AC source.
If the voltage is turned off for part of the conduction cycle, the
average voltage changes.
This is Electronics 101.

Post by rickman
There are *many* LED bulbs which can be dimmed by this standard
type of dimmer.

Yes, there are, but that is irrelevant to how a dimmer works and only
relevant to how the bulb works.

Post by rickman
As the reference I provide shows,

What reference?

Post by rickman
these bulbs include
smarts to measure this phase angle

You mean conduction angle?
You can't measure a phase angle absent a reference signal of a known
phase.
Again, Electronic 101.

Post by rickman
and adjust the bulb brightness
accordingly. I have several in my home.

Whoopee!!

Ok, if you really want to discuss this let me know.

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 01:52:01 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Sorry, but lighting control has been my job for much of the last 11
years. I am considered an expert in it by many of my peers and teach
courses on it. We also install many different lighting systems,
including LED.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".

There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

rickman

2014-11-29 03:39:51 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 04:01:19 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

Rick,

How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

But since you want the details, here is a start. There are a number of
problems with standard incandescent dimmers. Since they cut off the
initial phase of the positive and negative phases, when they start
conducting there is a large surge of power. This surge causes
additional heat buildup in a switching power supply and can cause
premature failure of the bulb and/or dimmer.

If you look at travel adapters for running U.S. devices on European
voltages, you'll find two different types - electronic switching and
standard transformer. You will notice the electronic switching supplies
are higher powered have cautions not to use them with electronic loads
such as radios and TV's. This is for the same reason as dimmers on LEDs
- the dimmer does not put out a clean waveform.

Transformer-based travel adapters have no such limitation because they
put out a clean signal, but have lower power ratings.

There are other problems, also. Conventional dimmers having a minimum
load (minimum current flowing through triacs). If the minimum load to
maintain conduction is 10W, a 15W LED will only dim to 2/3 power before
turning off.

Dimmable LED bulbs are also very sensitive to voltage fluctuations, and
can flicker with variations in the line voltage. This is especially
true when operating near that cutoff voltage noted above.

Also, since LED's respond immediately to current changes (unlike
incandescent, which have a high thermal inertia), there is a tendency
for them to flicker when the wrong dimmer is used. Sure, it's 120 hz
flicker - but some people are sensitive to it and can suffer headaches.
Worst case, but fortunately very rare, the flash can cause epileptic
seizures those sensitive to it.

These are some of the most serious problems with using conventional
dimmers with LED bulbs. It's also why manufacturers spend a lot of
money developing special dimmers for LED bulbs.

I would also recommend you check other manufacturer's of LED bulb
dimmers. You will find they all have the same cautions. But since
these pages are intended for consumers, they obviously leave out the
technical details. Those are available to dealers, though, either
through dealer-only pages or dealer support.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

rickman

2014-11-29 04:16:48 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to remove, and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

Rick,
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

I don't see where they said that. They are only talking about their own
products.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
But since you want the details, here is a start. There are a number of
problems with standard incandescent dimmers. Since they cut off the
initial phase of the positive and negative phases, when they start
conducting there is a large surge of power. This surge causes
additional heat buildup in a switching power supply and can cause
premature failure of the bulb and/or dimmer.

Dealing with this heat would be part of the design requirements for a
"dimmable" LED bulb, no?

Post by Jerry Stuckle
If you look at travel adapters for running U.S. devices on European
voltages, you'll find two different types - electronic switching and
standard transformer. You will notice the electronic switching supplies
are higher powered have cautions not to use them with electronic loads
such as radios and TV's. This is for the same reason as dimmers on LEDs
- the dimmer does not put out a clean waveform.
Transformer-based travel adapters have no such limitation because they
put out a clean signal, but have lower power ratings.
There are other problems, also. Conventional dimmers having a minimum
load (minimum current flowing through triacs). If the minimum load to
maintain conduction is 10W, a 15W LED will only dim to 2/3 power before
turning off.
Dimmable LED bulbs are also very sensitive to voltage fluctuations, and
can flicker with variations in the line voltage. This is especially
true when operating near that cutoff voltage noted above.

Again, this is a design issue and one that is present even when not
being dimmed.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Also, since LED's respond immediately to current changes (unlike
incandescent, which have a high thermal inertia), there is a tendency
for them to flicker when the wrong dimmer is used. Sure, it's 120 hz
flicker - but some people are sensitive to it and can suffer headaches.
Worst case, but fortunately very rare, the flash can cause epileptic
seizures those sensitive to it.

I have seen no information that 120 Hz flicker is in any way noticeable
or that anyone is sensitive to it. Monitors have flickered at much
lower rates for a very long time. Plus... again, this is an issue
without dimmers.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
These are some of the most serious problems with using conventional
dimmers with LED bulbs. It's also why manufacturers spend a lot of
money developing special dimmers for LED bulbs.
I would also recommend you check other manufacturer's of LED bulb
dimmers. You will find they all have the same cautions. But since
these pages are intended for consumers, they obviously leave out the
technical details. Those are available to dealers, though, either
through dealer-only pages or dealer support.

And yet, I have dimmers that work...

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 04:46:27 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to
remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Post by Michael Black
A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

Rick,
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

I don't see where they said that. They are only talking about their own
products.

"No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and
CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You
will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL
bulbs."

That seems to indicate they won't work reliably.

Dealing with this heat would be part of the design requirements for a
"dimmable" LED bulb, no?

Not when used with a non-LED bulb dimmer.

Simple LED dimmers use MOSFETs to trim the trailing part of the
waveform, eliminating the surge.

You can argue design all you want. But the fact is this surge current
creates heat - which wastes energy, making the bulb less efficient. And
adding what is necessary to handle the extra current would add cost,
raising the price. Both make the product less competitive.

Again, this is a design issue and one that is present even when not
being dimmed.

No, they do not flicker at full power. They may dim a bit, but they
will not flicker. LED dimmers provide a stable voltage to the bulb,
eliminating flicker.

You haven't been reading the medical engineering data. It is not so
much an issue without dimmers because there is a slight inertial effect
in the switching supply (capacitors) such that the bulb doesn't dim to
0, even at zero crossing. However, when you start cutting the AC cycle
going to the bulb, the capacitors totally discharge and you get a
relatively long period when the LEDs are completely black.

Monitors are not a problem because they work completely differently.
First of all, the original CRTs had a phosphor, which had a certain
amount of persistence. Newer LCD monitors (even "LED" monitors are LCD
monitors, just with an LED backlight) do not turn pixels on and off at a
scan rate.

And yet, I have dimmers that work...

See above - and check other manufactures of LED dimmers, also. They all
say the same thing. Argue with them, not me.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

rickman

2014-11-29 05:02:48 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to
remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Post by Michael Black
A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation issues aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without some kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

Rick,
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

I don't see where they said that. They are only talking about their own
products.

And yet I have units in my home that work...reliably. Rather than cite
dimmer companies, why not cite the bulb companies? That is what we are
discussing.

Dealing with this heat would be part of the design requirements for a
"dimmable" LED bulb, no?

Not when used with a non-LED bulb dimmer.
Simple LED dimmers use MOSFETs to trim the trailing part of the
waveform, eliminating the surge.
You can argue design all you want. But the fact is this surge current
creates heat - which wastes energy, making the bulb less efficient. And
adding what is necessary to handle the extra current would add cost,
raising the price. Both make the product less competitive.

I never said anything about "wasted" energy or competitiveness. I said
LED bulbs can are are designed that work with existing dimmers.

Again, this is a design issue and one that is present even when not
being dimmed.

No, they do not flicker at full power. They may dim a bit, but they
will not flicker. LED dimmers provide a stable voltage to the bulb,
eliminating flicker.

There is nothing inherent in a phase angle dimmer that causes flickering
in a properly designed bulb. A few uF capacitance takes care of that.

Unless you add a bit more capacitance... again a bulb design issue.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Monitors are not a problem because they work completely differently.
First of all, the original CRTs had a phosphor, which had a certain
amount of persistence. Newer LCD monitors (even "LED" monitors are LCD
monitors, just with an LED backlight) do not turn pixels on and off at a
scan rate.

Lol. Monitors do flicker and have always flickered. At 60 Hz most
monitors bother me a lot. At 80 Hz not at all. I don't know anyone or
have read anything that says 120 Hz is not sufficient to preclude the
perception of flicker.

And yet, I have dimmers that work...

See above - and check other manufactures of LED dimmers, also. They all
say the same thing. Argue with them, not me.

Ok, I guess we are done then.

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 14:12:54 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors gareth

Post by gareth
These LED replacements for 240V mains lamps; if one were to
open them, would one find a high voltage regulator suitable for
some of our valve experiments and repairs?

As the regulators are potted in and would be difficult to
remove,
and
since LED's run on voltages on the order of 2-3 volts, no.
How many 3 volt valves can you name?

Once again, incorrect. Have you ever heard of "dimmable LED bulbs"?
How do you dim without an adjustable regulator?

You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by
changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

For incandescent, yes. But not for LED bulbs. If that were the case,
why would some LED bulbs be dimmable and others not?

To specifically answer your question, you design a regulator who's output
is some precentage of the raw input as opposed to a regulator who's
output is always equal to some reference voltage.

Again, it all depends.

And to be yet more specific, since LED brightness is
proportional to
current and resistors would waste power, the regulator would be a
current regulator with an average current output proportional to the
raw input voltage.

Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Post by Michael Black
A lot of IC regulators can't handle high voltage. If nothing
else, nobody
saw the need, it was the solid state age. So dissipation
issues
aside,
most regulators expect at most a relatively low DC voltage input.

True for IC regulators. Hoever high voltage transistors exist these
days which makes designing a high voltage regulator pretty trivial.

Sure. But how do you handle the current requirements without
some
kind
of transformer?

Well, assuming you want some voltage greater than the wall plug maximum,
the need for a transformer is pretty much a given unless some sort of
voltage multiplying rectifier is sufficient for the need, which is
where the current requirement becomes relevant.
However, the subject was high voltage regulators, not where does the
raw high voltage come from.

And where do you get the current necessary to supply the LEDs in the
bulbs? A typical LED required around 3V (usually 2.7V to 3.3V,
depending on the LED)? A 9 watt LED would require 3 amps of current.
Or, if the LEDs were in series, something less. But without a
transformer, the current would still exceed that of an incandescent bulb.
You obviously are unfamiliar with the structure of LED bulbs.

You two are both speculating and have limited information to base either
of your opinions on. Jim says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
You do realize that a dimmable light bulb is dimmed by changeing the
supply voltage and not by anything else connected to the bulb?

which is not correct in that most dimmers work by reducing the phase
angle of the applied AC or to reduce noise some simply don't turn on for
entire half cycles.
Jerry says,

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Then why can't you use standard incandescent dimmers with LED bulbs?

Which is wrong because you can use "standard" dimmers, but the LED bulb
has to be designed for it.

Which they aren't for many reasons that I won't get into here.

Really? So the standard dimmers in my home can't work with the dimmable
LED bulbs they are connected to and seem to control just fine?

Post by rickman
Try reading a little...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-8/issue-6/features/led-lighting-must-work-with-legacy-dimming-technologies-magazine.html

This article is sorely lacking in facts. Notice the title: "LED
lighting must work with legacy dimming technologies".
There are a number of problems with dimmable LED bulbs and the standard
triac dimmer. See above. And I suggest you read more reliable
information. LED bulb manufacturer's information is a better start.

How do you explain the several LED bulbs I have working on standard
dimmers in my home?

Rick,
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

I don't see where they said that. They are only talking about their own
products.

And yet I have units in my home that work...reliably. Rather than cite
dimmer companies, why not cite the bulb companies? That is what we are
discussing.

Dealing with this heat would be part of the design requirements for a
"dimmable" LED bulb, no?

Not when used with a non-LED bulb dimmer.
Simple LED dimmers use MOSFETs to trim the trailing part of the
waveform, eliminating the surge.
You can argue design all you want. But the fact is this surge current
creates heat - which wastes energy, making the bulb less efficient. And
adding what is necessary to handle the extra current would add cost,
raising the price. Both make the product less competitive.

I never said anything about "wasted" energy or competitiveness. I said
LED bulbs can are are designed that work with existing dimmers.

Again, this is a design issue and one that is present even when not
being dimmed.

No, they do not flicker at full power. They may dim a bit, but they
will not flicker. LED dimmers provide a stable voltage to the bulb,
eliminating flicker.

There is nothing inherent in a phase angle dimmer that causes flickering
in a properly designed bulb. A few uF capacitance takes care of that.

Unless you add a bit more capacitance... again a bulb design issue.

Which the non-dimmable bulbs have.

Yes, CRTs flicker. They do not go out all together. And there is
significant medical evidence that some people are susceptible to the
on/off flicker at at 120 Hz. That's why companies have come out with
phase width dimmers which operate at higher frequencies, such as 480 hz.

If there weren't a need and a market for them, the manufacturers
wouldn't spend the time and money developing the product.

And yet, I have dimmers that work...

See above - and check other manufactures of LED dimmers, also. They all
say the same thing. Argue with them, not me.

Ok, I guess we are done then.

I suggest you check your facts. And get your information from reliable
resources.

--
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==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 06:09:54 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle <***@attglobal.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
"No, unlike incandescent bulbs that work with almost any dimmer, LED and
CFL bulbs perform differently depending on the dimmer you install. You
will need to select a dimmer designed specifically for dimmable LED/CFL
bulbs."

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/

<snip remainder>

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 14:14:37 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

--
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***@attglobal.net
==================

Rob

2014-11-29 15:14:34 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 15:23:26 UTC

Post by Rob

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.

I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work
with legacy dimmers.

--
==================
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Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 17:56:12 UTC

Post by Rob

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.

I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work
with legacy dimmers.

Independant reviews by people not selling someone else's product like
you are say they do.

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 01:16:02 UTC

Post by Rob

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Of course you won't believe it, but Philips (one l, a Dutch company)
know how to design lighting systems.

I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean their LED bulbs work
with legacy dimmers.

Independant reviews by people not selling someone else's product like
you are say they do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

--
==================
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Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 17:55:07 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 01:17:00 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't
believe them, we wouldn't sell their product.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-30 03:16:00 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't
believe them, we wouldn't sell their product.

Oh course you wouldn't.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

And of course anyone that disgrees with you is untrained.

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 03:33:56 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't
believe them, we wouldn't sell their product.

Oh course you wouldn't.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

And of course anyone that disgrees with you is untrained.

And what are the qualifications of the guy who wrote the blog? A
"text-based adventure connoisseur"? Some qualifications! Where's his
engineering degree? His experience in test labs?

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-30 06:00:19 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't
believe them, we wouldn't sell their product.

Oh course you wouldn't.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

And of course anyone that disgrees with you is untrained.

And what are the qualifications of the guy who wrote the blog? A
"text-based adventure connoisseur"? Some qualifications! Where's his
engineering degree? His experience in test labs?

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

--
Jim Pennino

atec77

2014-11-30 09:15:55 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

in this part of the world he would be described as a wanker , seems to
fit rather well
why wanker ?
well goal post moving and constant rebuttal of the truth with
fallacious claims tend to suggest wanker is on the money

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 15:18:33 UTC

Post by atec77

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

Ah, another well-known troll has to make a fool of himself. Why don't
you go back to aus.pay.tv? How about aus.legal? Maybe aus.hi-fi? Or
aus.radio.amateur.misc? You're well known as a troll there, also.

Are you trying to set a record for the number of groups you troll?

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 15:15:01 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Not if you use Phillips bulbs.
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

Yes, you will believe the engineers from the company whose bulbs and
dimmers you sell; you kind of have to.

No, I don't. I believe them because they are correct. If I didn't
believe them, we wouldn't sell their product.

Oh course you wouldn't.

Post by j***@specsol.spam.sux.com
There are lots of INDEPENDANT reviews out there that do NOT hold the
same views you do.

Independent reviews by untrained people are worth exactly what you paid
for them.

And of course anyone that disgrees with you is untrained.

And what are the qualifications of the guy who wrote the blog? A
"text-based adventure connoisseur"? Some qualifications! Where's his
engineering degree? His experience in test labs?

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Keep reading the funny pages. They're your speed.

And of course any independant reviewer that disagrees with you is the
"funny pages".

Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

ROFLMAO!

Show me a QUALIFIED reviewer, not someone who is a "text-based adventure
connoisseur". But you can't, because there isn't one who agrees with
your delusions.

--
==================
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Jerry, AI0K
***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-30 18:22:26 UTC

<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

ROFLMAO!
Show me a QUALIFIED reviewer, not someone who is a "text-based adventure
connoisseur". But you can't, because there isn't one who agrees with
your delusions.

One does not need to know how to design something to test something,
you megalomaniac.

I could waste my time finding lots of independant reports by lots of
independant sources but since they woud disagree with what the Great
and Mighty Jerry Stuckle, Fountain of all Knowledge that is True and
seller of light bulbs, you would just call them funny papers and the
writers incompetant.

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-30 19:53:53 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
Any UNQUALIFIED reviewer is in the funny pages. And they are right at
your speed.

My god you are the poster boy for megalomania.

ROFLMAO!
Show me a QUALIFIED reviewer, not someone who is a "text-based adventure
connoisseur". But you can't, because there isn't one who agrees with
your delusions.

One does not need to know how to design something to test something,
you megalomaniac.
I could waste my time finding lots of independant reports by lots of
independant sources but since they woud disagree with what the Great
and Mighty Jerry Stuckle, Fountain of all Knowledge that is True and
seller of light bulbs, you would just call them funny papers and the
writers incompetant.

Show me a QUALIFIED reviewer, not someone who is a "text-based adventure
connoisseur". But you can't, because there isn't one who agrees with
your delusions.

But you're too caught up in your ad hominim attacks, and are unable to
find a qualified reviewer who agrees with you - because they don't.

I'll bed your "text-based adventure connisseur" doesn't even know the
difference between a watt and a joule.

--
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***@attglobal.net
==================

j***@specsol.spam.sux.com

2014-11-29 06:07:37 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle <***@attglobal.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.

Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem

http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/

<snip remainder>

--
Jim Pennino

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 14:15:23 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.
Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?

And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?

I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

--
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***@attglobal.net
==================

rickman

2014-11-29 14:37:17 UTC

Post by Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.
Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?
And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was
clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and*
record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly
doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb
that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group.

Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you
doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of
manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd.

Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb
works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer?

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 15:09:06 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.
Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?
And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was
clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and*
record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly
doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb
that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group.
Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you
doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of
manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd.
Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb
works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer?

The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience
at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel.

And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It
doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance.

--
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==================

rickman

2014-11-29 15:12:33 UTC

In rec.radio.amateur.boatanchors Jerry Stuckle
<snip>

Post by Jerry Stuckle
How do you explain the manufacturer of dimmers says standard dimmers
cannot be used reliably?

Because the manufacturer wants to sell their dimmers and their bulbs.
Use Phillips bulbs and there is no problem
http://www.cnet.com/news/which-led-light-bulbs-are-best-for-dimming/
<snip remainder>

Then why do all manufacturers say the same thing?
And exactly what are the qualifications of the author? A "text-based
adventure connoisseur"?
I'll believe the engineers who design dimmers, not the funny pages.

You are being a bit silly about this. The guy did a *test* which was
clearly pretty thorough, thorough enough that he could detect *and*
record the flickering of the bulbs when dimmed. He pretty clearly
doesn't have a manufacturer bias since the same company had the bulb
that tested as the best and another which tested as the worst in the group.
Unless the guy has a reputation for faking such tests, why would you
doubt his work? Ignoring valid test data and preferring the opinion of
manufacturers who have a clear stake in the game just seems odd.
Do you deny that the tests show at least one brand and model LED bulb
works perfectly well with a legacy dimmer?

The guy is not an engineer - and AFAICT, has no engineering experience
at all. And I don't trust ANY tests performed by untrained personnel.
And all it shows is that ONE bulb worked properly with ONE dimmer. It
doesn't say how LONG it worked, for instance.

Did you actually *look* at the info?

--
Rick

Jerry Stuckle

2014-11-29 15:23:59 UTC